Got Whuffie

The Dialogue

$teve

Seen http://www.blogshares.com/ ? Whuffie in action.

jj

I hadn’t, thankyou. Although it rather loses the point of whuffie, in that it's linked to money.

$teve

Money is the easiest way for people to understand the system - just like popex does with music and money

jj

It goes against the point of whuffie. That was my point.

$teve

The point of whufflie was as a substitute for the true meaning that money implied - eg, popularity was more value as a tradable commodity when there's nothing left for money to buy. At this point, a crossover between trading an artificial unit (1 unit divisible by one hundred units) is best done by demonstrating that you can create a commodity exchange based on reputation within our current trading frameworks. Once that's demonstrated, you could trade in Tom Sellecks, and it'd be the same effect - the $ unit is the easiest step of conceptualising reputation trading. I don't quite follow how you see it as being against the point of whuffie.

jj

That’s not how I read whuffie it at all. Currency, like death, no longer existed in the Bitchun society, so it wasn't a matter of having nothing left to buy. It was a matter of trading on reputation (not popularity, which is something else entirely).

Whuffie wasn't based on a commodity exchange, but on what you could bring *to* an environment. The value of a contribution was based on existing whuffie (reputation points, if you like). So it wasn't a matter of selling what you have, but the value of what you can give. That's a different equation; you couldn't trade Tom Sellecks because it wouldn't be the value of what you have that mattered (based on $ unit value), but what you could contribute to society. You couldn't trade Tom Sellecks because it doesn't contribute anything - it's just a straight sale. So in Disneyland, it wasn't the fact that Julius worked at the House of Horrors, but the work he did it sustaining it and keeping it a work of art, that gave him whuffie. That's why it goes against the concept of whuffie. Because it's not about contribution, it's about mercantile exchange.

$teve

That's the thing - the nanotech reduced all demand to nil - even when totally broke, there were public service provided nanotech systems that could offer food for free. Hence reputation became the tradable commodity since anything could be created with nano.

I see this exchange as being the backend of the whuffie system - the bloggers aren't blogging for the virtual $$$, the virtual dollars are being invested in those who have the highest reputation (existing) or show the greatest potential to improve reputation. The market is a betting pool for whuffie movements - eg someone like you could arrive, and I could think "Yeah, she's got it, she'll go far" and invest my reputational currency in backing you. Should you succeed, I get direct payment to my reputational currency from your success. It's not a perfect reputation exchange, because as far as I could see, even when Julius was flat broke, he could still *give* whuffie, which meant that the giving didn't cost him anything. Which is where I feel the system was potentially flawed from an inflationary POV (unlimited wealth and constant printing of new wealth units would have to progressively drive whuffie prices upwards - which begged the question of the bar tab for me - who was getting the whuffie the drinkers were spending? And why were they gettting it?

jj

I understand the idea, but it doesn't explain why whuffie isn't necessarily damaged by association with someone of lower whuffie.

In my paper on blogging, I argue that bloggers don't blog purely as a means of developing social status (which could then be transferred into social 'wealth'), but rather as a means of satisfying those "oral cravings" incipient with cultural narcissism.

I'm not saying the system wasn't flawed, but I felt it was flawed for different reasons - precisely those are associated with popularity versus reputation. Reputation was more associated with 'high art' rather than popular culture, intellectual exploits rather than content industries, public interest ideals rather than free market initiatives. I saw *that* as being flawed because it assumed a cultural bias that just isn't there. But that aside, I think the reason why you are concerned over the inflationary aspects of whuffie are really bound up in the notion of whuffie as being pseudo-currency. If it were tenderable in the manner money is, then yes, the problems are profound. But I don't think of whuffie as being a direct replacement for money. It supersedes money, but it's philosophically different. It is, essentially, unlimited, and isn't based on 'price'. The only aspect of it that could work in the way of money is that the less whuffie you have the fewer opportunities you have. It is essentially a highly advanced class-based society which, rather than being based on hereditary foundations, is based on reputation. Whuffie can't be economically valued - it's socially driven. It's a philosophical shift away from consumerism and market economics, towards a more communist oriented social hierarchy. Politically, the Bitchun society is fascinating in and of itself. It's clearly the realisation of modern communism, but where it fails is that the Magic Kingdom itself is the pinnacle of capitalism and commerce, so of all places on the earth to suffer from the Bitchun society, it should be one of the first.

$teve

Reputation was the cash of the society. It was the only thing that you had left as a measurement of anything, now death, and scarcity were gone - the only scarcity in the system was reputation, and reputation was traded for services (eg bar tending) or for experiences (eg movies) and for the use of objects (eg handhelds)

Because the system is volatile, and whuffie is based on street credibility, peer respect, secondary respect, and achievements - high scoring people could never associate with anyone if hanging with lower scores detracted from your worth - for example, Dan's whuffie was astronomical, but he spent ages with people with near zero whuffie, and absolute zerowhuffie. He could still score respect from the low whuffie people because whuffie was apparently inifnite in the capacity to be generated

Juilus's experience of the system was that way. Julius was an arts student at uni when whuffie took over, and he was studying classics and hanging with the uni crowd - if the story had been about Julius the quarterback, rather than julius the arts student, then I think your reading would be prone to saying whuffie was biased to physical endeavour.

<jj> I saw *that* as being flawed because it assumed a cultural bias that just isn't there.

Except that is there - how many of your academic colleagues would give whuffie to Darren Lockyer for a great try saving tackle, compared to say, how the average Broncos fan would react in whuffie terms to the works of Clay Shirky? There were circles of whuffie, where Julius existed to serve in the arts/experience circles, others would be receiving their whuffie for different aspects.

He gains and loses his whuffie within his limited spheres of operation - " I'd pretty much pissed away most of my Whuffie-all the savings from the symphonies and the first three theses-drinking myself stupid at the Gazoo, hogging library terminals, pestering profs, until I'd expended all the respect anyone had ever afforded me. "

Bars, universities and Disneyland. That's where he makes it and breaks it, and where he's got the whuffie-income streams. That's all we hear about, since Julius doesn't hit the superbowl, hang with the NRA or go catch a tube in Hawaii.

Whuffie is presented as an actual currency - how can Dan use it buy a beer if it's not a currency?

"All except Dan, who, for some reason, stood me to regular beers and meals and movies."

When you flat line your whuffie - you flat line. Nothing works for you - lifts, handheld devices, the lot.

"This is how you hit bottom. You wake up in your friend's hotel room and you power up your handheld and it won't log on. You press the call-button for the elevator and it gives you an angry buzz in return. You take the stairs to the lobby and no one looks at you as they jostle past you. You become a non-person. Scared. I trembled when I ascended the stairs to Dan's room, when I knocked at his door, louder and harder than I meant, a panicked banging. Dan answered the door and I saw his eyes go to his HUD, back to me. "Jesus," he said. I sat on the edge of my bed, head in my hands. "What?" I said, what happened, what happened to me? "You're out of the ad-hoc," he said. "You're out of Whuffie. You're bottomed-out," he said."

Fewer opportunities yes. But without whuffie, you cease to be a person - that's not opportunity loss, that's straight out deprivation of goods and services.

<jj> Politically, the Bitchun society is fascinating in and of itself. It's clearly the realisation of modern communism,

Um. No. It's a pure market over the top of a non-Whuffie communist base. Every basic need is covered by the system, so that's the inherent communism. The fact that reputation is a tradeable commodity - and it is tradeable, as is evidenced by

"The Bitchun Society had all but done away with any sort of dull, repetitious labor, and what remained-tending bar, mopping toilets-commanded Whuffie aplenty and a life of leisure in your off-hours."

It's tradeable.

<jj>but where it fails is that the Magic Kingdom itself is the pinnacle of capitalism and commerce, so of all places on the earth to suffer from the Bitchun society, it should be one of the first.

In contrast, the Magic Kingdom is the factory floor of reputation - just like Olympics would be a massive generator of Whuffie - from volunteers assisting those around them, through to athletes scoring from achieving personally impressive performances - take for example the guy who Roy and HG took to in the swimming - his whuffie from Australians would've gone through the roof.

got whuffie?

A Dialogue on the Concept and Promises of Whuffie

Background

Context

The Dialogue

$teve	Seen http://www.blogshares.com/ ? Whuffie in action.
jj	I hadn’t, thankyou. Although it rather loses the point of whuffie, in that it's linked to money.
$teve	Money is the easiest way for people to understand the system - just like popex does with music and money
jj	It goes against the point of whuffie. That was my point.
$teve	The point of whufflie was as a substitute for the true meaning that money implied - eg, popularity was more value as a tradable commodity when there's nothing left for money to buy. At this point, a crossover between trading an artificial unit (1 unit divisible by one hundred units) is best done by demonstrating that you can create a commodity exchange based on reputation within our current trading frameworks. Once that's demonstrated, you could trade in Tom Sellecks, and it'd be the same effect - the $ unit is the easiest step of conceptualising reputation trading. I don't quite follow how you see it as being against the point of whuffie.
jj	That’s not how I read whuffie it at all. Currency, like death, no longer existed in the Bitchun society, so it wasn't a matter of having nothing left to buy. It was a matter of trading on reputation (not popularity, which is something else entirely). Whuffie wasn't based on a commodity exchange, but on what you could bring to an environment. The value of a contribution was based on existing whuffie (reputation points, if you like). So it wasn't a matter of selling what you have, but the value of what you can give. That's a different equation; you couldn't trade Tom Sellecks because it wouldn't be the value of what you have that mattered (based on $ unit value), but what you could contribute to society. You couldn't trade Tom Sellecks because it doesn't contribute anything - it's just a straight sale. So in Disneyland, it wasn't the fact that Julius worked at the House of Horrors, but the work he did it sustaining it and keeping it a work of art, that gave him whuffie. That's why it goes against the concept of whuffie. Because it's not about contribution, it's about mercantile exchange.
$teve	That's the thing - the nanotech reduced all demand to nil - even when totally broke, there were public service provided nanotech systems that could offer food for free. Hence reputation became the tradable commodity since anything could be created with nano. I see this exchange as being the backend of the whuffie system - the bloggers aren't blogging for the virtual $$$, the virtual dollars are being invested in those who have the highest reputation (existing) or show the greatest potential to improve reputation. The market is a betting pool for whuffie movements - eg someone like you could arrive, and I could think "Yeah, she's got it, she'll go far" and invest my reputational currency in backing you. Should you succeed, I get direct payment to my reputational currency from your success. It's not a perfect reputation exchange, because as far as I could see, even when Julius was flat broke, he could still give whuffie, which meant that the giving didn't cost him anything. Which is where I feel the system was potentially flawed from an inflationary POV (unlimited wealth and constant printing of new wealth units would have to progressively drive whuffie prices upwards - which begged the question of the bar tab for me - who was getting the whuffie the drinkers were spending? And why were they gettting it?
jj	I understand the idea, but it doesn't explain why whuffie isn't necessarily damaged by association with someone of lower whuffie. In my paper on blogging, I argue that bloggers don't blog purely as a means of developing social status (which could then be transferred into social 'wealth'), but rather as a means of satisfying those "oral cravings" incipient with cultural narcissism. I'm not saying the system wasn't flawed, but I felt it was flawed for different reasons - precisely those are associated with popularity versus reputation. Reputation was more associated with 'high art' rather than popular culture, intellectual exploits rather than content industries, public interest ideals rather than free market initiatives. I saw that as being flawed because it assumed a cultural bias that just isn't there. But that aside, I think the reason why you are concerned over the inflationary aspects of whuffie are really bound up in the notion of whuffie as being pseudo-currency. If it were tenderable in the manner money is, then yes, the problems are profound. But I don't think of whuffie as being a direct replacement for money. It supersedes money, but it's philosophically different. It is, essentially, unlimited, and isn't based on 'price'. The only aspect of it that could work in the way of money is that the less whuffie you have the fewer opportunities you have. It is essentially a highly advanced class-based society which, rather than being based on hereditary foundations, is based on reputation. Whuffie can't be economically valued - it's socially driven. It's a philosophical shift away from consumerism and market economics, towards a more communist oriented social hierarchy. Politically, the Bitchun society is fascinating in and of itself. It's clearly the realisation of modern communism, but where it fails is that the Magic Kingdom itself is the pinnacle of capitalism and commerce, so of all places on the earth to suffer from the Bitchun society, it should be one of the first.
$teve	Reputation was the cash of the society. It was the only thing that you had left as a measurement of anything, now death, and scarcity were gone - the only scarcity in the system was reputation, and reputation was traded for services (eg bar tending) or for experiences (eg movies) and for the use of objects (eg handhelds) Because the system is volatile, and whuffie is based on street credibility, peer respect, secondary respect, and achievements - high scoring people could never associate with anyone if hanging with lower scores detracted from your worth - for example, Dan's whuffie was astronomical, but he spent ages with people with near zero whuffie, and absolute zerowhuffie. He could still score respect from the low whuffie people because whuffie was apparently inifnite in the capacity to be generated Juilus's experience of the system was that way. Julius was an arts student at uni when whuffie took over, and he was studying classics and hanging with the uni crowd - if the story had been about Julius the quarterback, rather than julius the arts student, then I think your reading would be prone to saying whuffie was biased to physical endeavour. <jj> I saw that* as being flawed because it assumed a cultural bias that just isn't there.* Except that is there - how many of your academic colleagues would give whuffie to Darren Lockyer for a great try saving tackle, compared to say, how the average Broncos fan would react in whuffie terms to the works of Clay Shirky? There were circles of whuffie, where Julius existed to serve in the arts/experience circles, others would be receiving their whuffie for different aspects. He gains and loses his whuffie within his limited spheres of operation - " I'd pretty much pissed away most of my Whuffie-all the savings from the symphonies and the first three theses-drinking myself stupid at the Gazoo, hogging library terminals, pestering profs, until I'd expended all the respect anyone had ever afforded me. " Bars, universities and Disneyland. That's where he makes it and breaks it, and where he's got the whuffie-income streams. That's all we hear about, since Julius doesn't hit the superbowl, hang with the NRA or go catch a tube in Hawaii. Whuffie is presented as an actual currency - how can Dan use it buy a beer if it's not a currency? "All except Dan, who, for some reason, stood me to regular beers and meals and movies." When you flat line your whuffie - you flat line. Nothing works for you - lifts, handheld devices, the lot. "This is how you hit bottom. You wake up in your friend's hotel room and you power up your handheld and it won't log on. You press the call-button for the elevator and it gives you an angry buzz in return. You take the stairs to the lobby and no one looks at you as they jostle past you. You become a non-person. Scared. I trembled when I ascended the stairs to Dan's room, when I knocked at his door, louder and harder than I meant, a panicked banging. Dan answered the door and I saw his eyes go to his HUD, back to me. "Jesus," he said. I sat on the edge of my bed, head in my hands. "What?" I said, what happened, what happened to me? "You're out of the ad-hoc," he said. "You're out of Whuffie. You're bottomed-out," he said." Fewer opportunities yes. But without whuffie, you cease to be a person - that's not opportunity loss, that's straight out deprivation of goods and services. <jj> Politically, the Bitchun society is fascinating in and of itself. It's clearly the realisation of modern communism, Um. No. It's a pure market over the top of a non-Whuffie communist base. Every basic need is covered by the system, so that's the inherent communism. The fact that reputation is a tradeable commodity - and it is tradeable, as is evidenced by "The Bitchun Society had all but done away with any sort of dull, repetitious labor, and what remained-tending bar, mopping toilets-commanded Whuffie aplenty and a life of leisure in your off-hours." It's tradeable. <jj>but where it fails is that the Magic Kingdom itself is the pinnacle of capitalism and commerce, so of all places on the earth to suffer from the Bitchun society, it should be one of the first. In contrast, the Magic Kingdom is the factory floor of reputation - just like Olympics would be a massive generator of Whuffie - from volunteers assisting those around them, through to athletes scoring from achieving personally impressive performances - take for example the guy who Roy and HG took to in the swimming - his whuffie from Australians would've gone through the roof.